[STX] Detention Vortex
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These all play nicely into whites newly reinvigorated Mana tax strategy. Elite Spellbinder is probably the most prominent but the reprinting of Mana Tithe as well as this are all pretty big signals. It makes sense to me too because they don't play well with whites most powerful removal spell in most other formats, Path to Exile, and I think they want to make sure the strategy is parallel to the most powerful things already does, plus it plays into whites anti-ramp cards if you try to rush out payment on these taxes.
I'm not going to be shocked if we see a white Mana Leak in MH2, or even dare I say it a white Duress/Thoughtseize with the mana tax exile instead of discard.
That being said, I think most of the time in vintage this is going to feel lacking because of the sorcery speed. It does seem much better than the upcoming portable hole apart from card type matters stuff, but I feel like most decks that would want this may prefer slightly narrower answers that play on the stack.
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i suppose i should mention suppression field, though i think that card is more legacy than vintage in typical use.
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@blindtherapy said in [STX] Detention Vortex:
suppression field
Mana taxing is nothing new for White, the difference now is the new templating is more proactive. Instead of just blanket saying everyone pay more for X (Thalia), meaning the tax does not take place until your opponent chooses, now you tend to get the benefit upfront until your opponent pays to shut it off.
It is usually a minor distinction and both play well with each other, but I think it shows they are willing to allow white to actually do more. Countermagic should always have been prominent in whites color pie slice, so I think we will see it more going forward as Force Spike effects.
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I think the upside to revoker is that it's a body to swing with too. It capitalizes on the tempo and isn't just a 3-mana stall. Null rod seems to handle the moxen/balista issues in one, semi-permanent, sweep, and only costs 1 more mana. There are no planeswalker abilities you need to really worry about when you are on 1 mana. A revoker or more permanent answer for 2 or 3 mana is likely better vs PWs. This has some versatility, but I don't know if a speed bump that isn't ALSO a threat (thalia, revoker, spellbinder, archon, etc) is really worth the slot in a fish/tempo deck.
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@protoaddict said in [STX] Detention Vortex:
Mana taxing is nothing new for White, the difference now is the new templating is more proactive.
oh, i'm not saying that taxing in white is a new theme, i'm saying if you have a supression field in play it costs 5 to pop detention vortex rather than 3.
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@thewhitedragon69 said in [STX] Detention Vortex:
I think the upside to revoker is that it's a body to swing with too. It capitalizes on the tempo and isn't just a 3-mana stall. Null rod seems to handle the moxen/balista issues in one, semi-permanent, sweep, and only costs 1 more mana. There are no planeswalker abilities you need to really worry about when you are on 1 mana. A revoker or more permanent answer for 2 or 3 mana is likely better vs PWs. This has some versatility, but I don't know if a speed bump that isn't ALSO a threat (thalia, revoker, spellbinder, archon, etc) is really worth the slot in a fish/tempo deck.
All the cards you’re talking about cost 2 mana. I think 1 mana vs 2 mana is very significant. I can list about 5 cards that are better than Revoker at a higher mana cost...
Just like 6 mana cards are better than 4 mana cards. What are we doing here?
Is Nature’s Claim better than Disenchant? Absolutely not. And heck Dismantling Blow is light years better than Disenchant, right?
I’m not making the argument that this should replace Revoker or even see extensive play. Just pointing out this card exists and has uses at a very competitive casting cost. There aren’t many cards like it. Hypothetically if you could only produce 1 mana, what card would you play instead of this to achieve the same effect?
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@lienielsen Yes, but what must you shut down for 1 mana? And temporarily at that? I can't think of any turn 1 threat that is a permanent that you have to shut down (that doesn't win the game on the spot). 2 mana seems highly attainable turn 1 in Vintage. The best "need" I can see is you are on the draw and your opponent goes "land, mox, mox, tinker ->BSC". You can now pacify it with just a land drop and hope they don't have a second land to just pop your vortex. Or you could have just cast StP. If they got citadel instead, this won't even stop the engine ability.
If they have a mox, they at least get one use out of it (revoker proactively can stop it)...and a 1-for-1 trade to temporarily stop a mox seems hardly worth it. Revoker is at least 2 damage a turn until they remove it.
So, yes, this is a 1-drop, vs all the superior options being a 2-drop. The thing is, do you ever really need a 1-drop pseudo-answer that provides no clock of its own, with a built-in self-destruct button? I can't really see the function of it vs anything relevant Vintage brings that a plow or 2-drop wouldn't just be far better at handling.
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If you’ve traded 1 mana for 3 mana, you’ve gained a mana advantage. Yes, Plow can exile a turn 1 Colossus and Fragmentize and destroy a Mox. But Detention Vortex can do either AND more.
Hypothetically, if I only had 1 mana to spare and needed the other land drop for Bazaar activations or to make another “lock piece” drop, Detention Vortex could be very serviceable. They would have to think pretty hard about setting themselves back 3 mana. It only works though if vortex would be followed up by another lock piece, like an accumulation of Spiketail Hatchling effects, or some major threat.
Here’s a hypothetical list where this card might have unrivaled uses:
4 Detention Vortex
4 Land Tax
4 (1 mana rule of law)
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Suppression Field
4 Phrygian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Leonin Relic Warder
2 Scroll Rack
1 Aura of Silence
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Armageddon4 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
10 Plains
1 Bazaar of BaghdadNow, I don’t recommend just turboing this out on turn 1, but in a strategic and calculated way to form the most effective soft lock on your opponent.
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@lienielsen said in [STX] Detention Vortex:
d needed the other land drop for Bazaar activations or to make another “lock piece” drop, Detention Vortex could be very serviceable. They would have to think pretty hard about setting themselves back 3 mana. It only works though if vortex would be followed up by another lock piece, like an accumulation of Spiketail Hatchling effects, or some major threat.
I think needing White mana is a thing that has to factor into the conversation as well. If this thing was any other color I think we would be having a much different conversation.
That being said this probably fits in best with hatebears as we all presume. Null rod + Strip + Wastelands, etc etc stops a lot, and the 1 mana is very relevant in a list where you conceivably want to spend your second land every single turn to strip theirs. Also of note is that Lurrus can recur this. I am entirely unsure if hatebears can function without 3 mana drops or not but I imagine so.
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@LieNielsen I'm certain you are an OS/MS player busting out the land tax/scroll rack/armageddon combo, lol. For Vintage...maybe. While that list doesn't seem particularly bad as a white hatebears deck, the vortex seem like the weakest card of the list.
I don't typically see bazaar in a whitebears list, and I think the combo angle of it is a bit slow for what most vintage decks do. I don't think the card is completely useless, but I do think its applications in the majority of the vintage meta is limited at best. Requiring multiple lock pieces to make this playable seems suspect.
Splashing green for something like collector ouphe/FoV just seems better to me. If it has to be monowhite, I'm thinking containment priests or null rods serve that slot better. THAT list looks like it wants to be playing turn 1 land tax/scroll rack (which is iffy in Vintage anyway), so a second land drop could be your singleton bazaar (with only land tax as combo?) or any 2nd mana to cast a real threat or heavy lock piece like null rod. You might snipe a mox and then go on a land-kill plan, but it seems unlikely to be a consistent field-wrecker to me.
I don't mind that detention vortex can fragmentize or plow and MORE...it's the many times where this will do either effect poorly or LESS than other options.
I may be wrong and this might be a 1-mana banishing light...I just don't see it in any reliable form without a total build-around. And I think there are far more busted cards to build around if you're jumping through hoops.
