I'm conflicted about the benefit of the blue pitch counters over Thalia/Collector Ouphe. I played some games against Andy with Paradoxical Outcome and found it pretty unlikely to beat Thalia/Collector Ouphe on turn 1. I liked how proactive the deck was and it forced me to try to mulligan into hands that had Force of Will along with early action.
I agree with @Rat3dE . I can't speak for everyone who runs [[The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale]], but it's a reasonable choice in specific matchups. Like you said, the HollowVine decks don't run a ton of mana to support a Tabernacle, but you'd bring it in only against decks that are even less equipped to handle it.
It looks like partially The Tabernacle is a response to a specific metagame. Is this still the case now?
I don't play online and very irregularly play in paper so my knowledge of the metagame is quite outdated. Nevertheless, I was under impression that Dredge is getting leaner and meaner as a response to fast combos and mid-range controls, not to mentions thanks to new forces (let the force be with us).
I noticed that in the Vintage Challenge #12130342 Dredge and HollowVine 6-1'ed. It would be interesting to hear from the players, but I have no idea if PTarts2win or WingedHussar has a TMD account.
oops! the old thread for this post got displaced so I'm recreating it - Brass Man
Fun episode as always! Looks like it was recorded right before [[Mystic Sanctuary]] was spoiled which is why they didn't mention it.
So far personally this has felt like a pretty nice set for Vintage. Wishclaw is playable, but not as scary as I personally feared, Sanctuary and Stonecoil both seem solid without being problematic. A nice balance was struck here, I think.
@neo_altoid recommended that I move this post over here so that more people can see it.
Using Hope of Ghirapur in KarnForge
Karn Shops is one of the top performing decks in the Vintage format but is often defenceless. In the N.Y.S.E. Open VI there were five Karn Shops decks in the top nine that seemed to rely on just 3-4 coppies of Defense Grid in the deck for protection. I propose that adding copies of Hope of Ghirapur would improve upon an already powerful Karn Shops.
I do say that Defense Grid is better to defend Karn Shops is than Hope of Ghirapur. My argument is that four Defense Grid is not enough to defend Karn Shops with and that multiple Hope of Ghirapur would help.
Hope of Ghirapur denies your opponent from casting non-creature spells on the second phase of a turn. Often is that all you need to win the game is to have a Karn, the Great Creator or Mystic Forge on the battlefield and Hope of Ghirapur can deny the opponent from using counter magic or other interaction that would stop a Karn or Mystic Forge.
Hope of Ghirapur is cheap to cast and is free with Foundry Inspector.
Manifold Key’s secondary ability can be useful to make Hope of Ghirapur unblockable if your opponent has a flyer to block with.
Hope of Ghirapur can make Karn Shops faster by slowing the opponent. It can take away half of an opponent’s turn by denying them the ability to cast sorceries, enchantments, planeswalkers, and non-creature artifacts for a turn. This is very helpful in slowing down fast combo decks such as Paradoxical Outcome, Dark Petition Storm and Karn Shops mirror-match.
Because Mystic Forge lets you draw many cards per turn, you can cast multiple Hope of Ghirapur turn after turn, preventing your opponent from counter your spells and casting non-creature spells during their turn for multiple turns. This could give you enough turns to assemble a Time Vault/Key or Karn/Mycosynth Lattice combination and lock your opponent out for the rest of the game.
Let’s take a look at the final match between Joe Brennen and Vasu Balakrishnan in the N.Y.S.E. Open VI. Vasu was playing Karn Shops combo with Mystic Forge and Joe was playing BUG Control. In game one Joe had a hand full of counterspells. If Vasu had a Hope of Ghirapur on the battlefield at the time, Joe would have been unable to cast most of his hand. In round two, Joe countered a Mystic Forge. If Hope of Ghirapur had attacked, Joe could not have played his Force of Will to counter Vasu’s Mystic Forge and Joe would have been unable to cast his Narset, Parter of Veils on his turn. The game may have turned out differently but these are just examples.
Thank you for considering using Hope of Ghirapur in Karn Shops. I look forward to seeing how Karn Shops evolves over the next couple of months and how it will perform at Eternal Weekend.
@ian-mars I agree. Pyroblast which is Bugs bane was largely margenalised with Karn Forge and Pitch dredge. Jeskai and RUG will get a major boost by effectively being able to replace Misstep with Pyro which is a net zero gain vs shops but is a huge tempo swing vs BUG
If you removed all the disruption from the original list shown above in post 1 and went with say:
-1 skull clamp
+2 Helm of Awakening
+1 Mox Opal
How much would it speed it up?
Just theory crafting here, but dropping a helm shouldn't be an issue since you "should" win that turn most of the time, right? Or is it too much a liability?
I'm not actually sure removing the disruption would make it faster by any measurable stat. Most of the disruption already makes the deck faster by virtue of being an artifact in play and contributing as ravager food.
There are also some other interesting cost reduction cards that could be used other than cloud key and Helm of awakening:
Locket of Yesterdays - The deck has a lot of 4 ofs and does bin a lot of cards
Mycosynth Golem - It does not seem unreasonable that this could come into play on turn 2 if you start to combo off
Semblance Anvil - I Believe this was in a few artifact combo decks in the past.
That being said I'm not sure its worth dropping disruption to play them in the least, because the deck is already so low on CMC that I don't think they do that much more to reduce cost than just having another rock in play.
Very simplified and my own accord, but I always grouped decks by thier lands.
Bazzaar ( dredge, survival, or Welder/Reanimator/Dragon)
Forbidden Orchard (oath)
Cavern of Souls ( lions and tigers and bears)
Tolarian Academy (combo)
Library of Alexandria (control)
In general if I look at a list, and it has these lands,in the appropriate shell of, that is what it is. I'm honestly surprised no one else groups this way. The lands you run are the key deciding factor to what deck you are playing, not the win con or draw engine.
Flayer of the Hatebound is probably the best finisher since it has reach, and smaller amounts than 20 can be used to wipe your opponents board.
Griselbrand, Muldrotha I think are the best facilitators since they can win on their own. Muldrotha you can easily grind out wins (2 Hollow Ones every turn, and a landfall) and Griselbrand plays well with all the pitch spells to buy time.
Snap is still an ambush viper who can at least get in and chump block to 'gain' you 3-4 life and kill Bridges. But with only 2 Cages (in this particular list) you are probably still going to cast a spell with him sometimes.
I just wanted to say I enjoyed the podcast a lot this week, and really felt like i got some good insight. More than anything, however, was just the enthusiasm for the format rubbed off and really made me want to brew. I have like 4 lists in progress, because I really want to try some new stuff.
This is a terrific write-up, and gives great insight into the way you approach the game and life in general. More than anything about Magic or this particular weekend, I came away from reading this with just a general feeling of sadness, though I'm not sure what that says about me.