Why are so many people advocating for the restriction of Mishra's workshop ? I find this very notion outrageous... The goal of Br policy is to regulate dominant decks and promote diversity not to eradicate a deck from the format completely.
If Workshop were to be restricted the metagame would devolve into a mostly blue cannibalistic slugfest where almost everyone is playing quad missteps and flusterstorms/ white eldrazi and dredge. I doubt it would be a lot more fun than the current two deck metagame.
I would rather advocate for the restriction of thorn or the ravager ballista combo (AND Monastery Mentor).
The reasoning behind restricting thorn is that it is much better than sphere at the moment due to being largely asymmetric given the creature focus of the current iterations of Workshops. At the moment shops are so fast that a single thorn can be enough for them to out-tempo the opponent especially since it doesn't slow down the shops player's development at all. Restricting thorn would also give combo decks more breathing room, allowing them to take metagame shares and thus increase diversity. Mentor is so good in part because it is the best win condition under thorn of amethyst and it fights workshop on their aggressive axis.

Restricting ballista and/or ravager alongside with mentor has the potential to increase diversity by making aggro control decks competitive again and diversifying the win conditions that blue decks use.

I don't think that outcome needs to be touched for now, as it is vulnerable to null rod effects and artifact destruction which means that if its metagame share starts to go up, it will be relatively easy for the metagame to adapt. And if/when it starts to dominate we can always restrict it down the road.

It seems like a lot of cards would be unrestrictable power level wise, but if they don't help to add more diversity in the metagame and just consolidate tier 1 decks there is no point
.
I think that when trying to estimate whether a card is unrestrictable, the most important things one should consider are:
Which decks benefit from the unrestriction?
How are those decks positioned in the metagame currently?
How said unrestriction would help make those decks more competitive against the general metagame?
How does having access to that card as a 4of impact different dynamics?

Like if you take Ponder, the card in itself is absolutely not restriction worthy based on power level( roughly equal to an unrestricted card aka Preordain). But what happens if you unrestrict it? It goes in an archetype that is arguably hurting diversity in the format already (Gush decks) and with preordain you now have a critical mass of good 1 mana cantrips in the format. Poses the threat of becoming an auto include in many decks.

Now look at Windfall which is a much powerful card abstractly. What happens if you unrestrict it? Storm combo decks already have a critical mass of threats and consistency with dark petition so they would not start playing it (they don't play it as a one of because of how bad it truly is). The most likely candidate is Belcher which looses to itself and the metagame way too often for it to ever be a viable competitive option (in the current conditions). But what does it add? more variance in opening hands and enables a critical mass of turn 1 forced mulligans if you are on the draw.
Card is swingy, doesn't introduce anything new and leads to more "Watch your opponent play"type of games (on one side or the other) which the format doesn't need more of.

Channel is in the same clan, super swingy and ultra narrow card that really doesn't do anything except threaten the health of the format.

and so on.

If I had to choose one card to unrestrict, Flash would be my choice pick because:

• It puts a deck like Rector omni on the map (which it is so far from currently).
• It doesn't warp the format seeing as it's inherent inconsistencies are kept in check by the restricted list.
• Most decks already play 4 or more cards that hose graveyard interactions (which Flash relies on) in their sideboard.
• x4 Flash Rector omni would still struggle against denial decks, gush decks and faster combo decks.
• It does not just become auto include in every blue deck.
• It doesn't make the format revolve around itself when legal in multiples (in comparison to cards like Chalice of the Void for instance).
• It's better than oath of druids in that it's blue and can be cast at instant speed but it also requires more ressources and a lot more focus in the deck-building process.

So after seeing so much polarizing opinions about fastbond, I decided to run a prison oriented fastbond list against a standard vintage gauntlet (ravager shops, White eldrazi, Outcome, rituals, oath, key vault, dredge, monogush mentor) and while the deck definitely had some strong elements, it was really inconsistent, very fragile to disruption and unable to comeback from behind. It was a really fun and refreshing experience even though the list I ran was probably not optimal nor tuned, it still managed to win a couple matches when it had solid draws.

For reference here is the list:

Engine:
4 Fastbond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Horn of Greed (let's the deck go off like a combo deck)
2 Grazing Gladehart (only reasonnably priced zuran orb alternative that works under null rod)
2 Lotus Cobra (for chaining barbarian ring kills or canopy draws, without it you need to use two more landdrops for each chain with wasteland + other land)
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Horizon Canopy

Control:
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Barbarian Ring (Removal and wincon all in one)

Non utility Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Barbarian Ring
3 Bojuka Bog
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Glacial Chasm

EDIT: Tweaked the list a little bit with the following changes:
Maindeck
-2 Grazing Gladehart (replaced with Glacial Chasm)
-2 Lotus Cobra (replaced with moxen for more turn one sphere consistency)
-1 Trinisphere (was only really good with workshop on turn one, it usually becomes dead pretty fast as you draw a considerable amount of cards compared to a standard workshop deck and usually have multiple of your spheres and thorns)
-1 Ensnaring bridge (Glacial chasm does same job)
+2 Smokestack (gives you something to maintain pressure in the long game and an answer to any problematic permanent)
+2 Glacial Chasm (zuran orb + moat all in one, uncounterable and unaffected by spheres/removal)
+2 off color moxen (solely to increase the odds of having a turn one sphere, it brings the total artifact number up to 6 but plays alongside null rod fine due to having bazaar and smokestack)

Sideboard:
-1 Witchbane Orb
-2 Ensnaring bridge
+3 Nature's Claim

I dont think letting your opponent play extra lands is a problem at all in most matchups, most of the time when you are loosing to shops you are struggling to even find one land drop a turn, this card doesnt make lands magically appear in your hand from a 15 lands deck which most vintage decks are. As far as gush is concerned, this card negates one of your spheres for one turn whenever your opponent gushes and that's about it in most cases.
Also if your opponent gets to 0 cards in hand when you are on shops, then things already went very wrong for you and this drawing them cards is the least of your worries (not to mention that you must have been playing pretty badly if you played this when there was any indication that they could dump their hand quickly or already had done so)

Considering the impact that the printing of Dark petition had on ritual storm, I would be cautious of unrestricting a card that had a similar mana cost, is far more powerful and is less susceptible to commonly played hate (dark petition is weak to flusterstorm and grave hate).
Some might say that bargain is not easy to cast right now, but that's because of how the current curve of the deck is. I'm pretty sure you can build your deck to reliably cast bargain on turn 2 and win on the spot.
Let's not forget that this could also make show and tell problematic.

EDIT: There is also no reason to unrestrict something this impactful for ritual storm. Regardless of the amount of play it is currently seeing it's still a pretty competitive deck, unrestricting one of the most broken cards in the deck could easily push it over the edge.
As a ritual enthousiast I think windfall and memory jar should be candidates for unrestriction long before bargain even enters your mind, because those wouldn't change much (if anything) to the existing deck.
I'm guessing that most of the people saying bargain is safe either don't have experience with the card or are trying to analyze it from a blue mana efficency perspective (if you cant get to 6 mana with your ritual deck you aren't going anywhere anyways). There is no card in storm combo that lets you win as easily as bargain, to put it in perspective Mind's desire (aka a lot of people's boogey man) doesn't come close in terms of consistency and requires a lot more investment than bargain does. Will needs set up, necro has it's own tensions, and draw7s are symmetric.

The metagame looks overall more healthy and certainly feels more open from a gameplay and deckbuilding perspective. Shops are still viable but feel less opressive. Aggro control/tempo decks like delver and bug fish are back in the metagame. Big Blue seems to be in a better place now that we can diversify wincons. Outcome has almost 30% of the field but it's win percentage doesn't translate, so it's likely that people chose outcome as a default deck in an "unknown" environment and with time the deck will go back to a more reasonable % of the meta. Even dredge gets some love in the top 8. Only notable absence is Dark rituals, which were expected to become more viable with the unrestriction of Yawg Bargain. As null rod becomes more prevalent to react to outcome, we might see a shift from outcome storm to ritual storm, or at least one can hope.

Great job on this one for the DCI, looks like we are steering back towards the "golden age" metagame that we had before Khans.

Gush was correct to hit as well, judging by URx delver's performance, if probe and gush were still unrestricted it is likely that delver would still be in a position to dominate.

As far as mentor, I guess we can say goodbye to the turbo xerox fueled builds for good. The next step is probably going to be most big blue decks will be esper and have 2-3 mentors as a side wincon, thinking of decks like landstill, bomberman, Outcome, Key vault.

Gush was the wrong card to hit, mentor + probe would have been much better since it nerfs current gush decks and nerfs their direct replacement grixis therapy. Right now we just lost the entire gushbond engine, decks such as doomsday becomes truly unplayable (at least in their current form).

Gush was an entirely different archetype whereas mentor is just a better tinker and can be slotted in most decks without much deckbuilding accommodations.
Gush would probably have been fair without mentor, probe and delve spells. We would essentially go back to UR/Rug delver which wasn't dominant or format warping until Tcruise was printed, and new printings/unrestrictions can probably keep up with that deck + 2 restricted delve spells.
On the other hand Mentor will continue to be broken without gush and probably even more so, in a solomoxcrypt build you are much more likely to be able to cast it on turn one. The new mentor decks will be less consistent and less interactive but more explosive and "Oops I win". Mentor will likely continue to be the absolute trump against creature based strategies and push most of them out of the metagame.

Probe going is glorious though, it reduced deck space and in game decisions too much. Bluffing is a huge and fun part of the game. Now only Misstep to go and we will be rid of the cancer that phyrexian mana is.

@boxian said in How good is Monastery Mentor as of this afternoon?:

@Topical_Island if you roll with Thirst and Academy, would you also play the artifact lands for extra value at the sake of more fragility?

@boxian
Only if null rod/stony silence is absent from your metagame. But to be honest paradoxical outcome is probably much better with mentor than thirst is. Thirst fueled decks are probably weak against outcome decks as well and still vulnerable to null rod.

Not wanting to derail the thread further. But it's funny that out of all the randomness of vintage mana crypt flips is the thing people focus on. I find it a lot more amusing to loose to my own mana crypt than watching my opponent play magic because they got to resolve a turn one Ancestral recall or something. Magic is a game where variance is as important as skill and strategy...

Anyway I think we can all agree that no changes should be made to the Restricted list until at least after vintage's champs as the metagame is still adjusting and new printings have been introduced. Gush isn't even really dominating the format, it's just putting pressure on the metagame.
And as far as unrestrictions most cards would either have too little impact or too much. Or simply don't add anything or make the format more fun to play.

I feel like your best chance to beat a mentor deck would be to build another mentor deck with something to give you the edge on cards in the mirror like mystic remora.
Combo decks are okay vs mentor if they manage to overcome the counterwalls in the early game and go off. Defense grid is a strong trump to what gush decks are doing. But the inherent variance of combo decks vs the consistency of the gush draw engine makes up for the difference sometimes. Although I feel like a good combo pilot should be slightly favored in the matchup.
It also depends on the sideboard of the mentor deck, if they have access to aegis of the gods or something along those lines things could become very hard for the combo deck. Since the mentor deck only has to devote their counters to protect their hoser from the 1-2 answers the combo deck has between main and side.

The way I understand mentor decks is that they can be vulnerable to strong openers from broken decks in the early game, but past turn 3 they just start to bury you more and more. You can't both trump the mentor and keep the draw engine in check in the long run. You need to be doing something very proactive in the early game to win.

I don't think there is a single card that beats mentor, like you could have a moat in play they can still outdraw you long enough to win the game with JVP. You can put pressure on the draw engine, but then you still have to deal with the army of monks. The best defense is often offense and in mentor's case this is very true.

TPS should be a strong contender in a metagame of shops and mentor. It's naturally favored against blue decks as long as it can somewhat keep up on cards (the restriction of gush opens this). It's far more resilient to hate than Paradoxical outcome. It also has a much better shops matchup than traditional ritual storm due to having more lands and FoW.

I feel like the list from the OP is a little outdated however.
I was thinking something like this for the current meta:

3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Flusterstorm
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Time Walk
3 Dark Petition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Timetwister
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Mystic Remora
SB: 3 Pack Rat
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap

That effect for 4 mana is absolutely bonkers. You can basically always draw your entire deck if you untap with this/have enough mana. It's basically a permanent Mind's Desire.

By far the main thing holding this back is going to be the colored requirements. It's easier to generate 3 mana of the same color than 3 specific and distinct colors with things like black lotus.

You probably can't play this in a control deck since you can't really use this incrementally and you'll have a hard time closing games in one turn.

So, you are left with a combo deck. You need a shell that can play lots of spells to make sure you make the most of this card and an on the spot way to win. So Mentor, Tinker, Storm kill and/or Time vault.
I just don't see the Doomsday/Ritual deck that can support this and Gush being restricted means no Gush storm either.
So, you are probably looking a lot like an Outcome deck at this point. Are you playing this over Outcome or are you playing both? and if both, what are you cutting for this?

Unless you can somehow put together a Baral shell around this with manamorphose? How good would this card have to be to make a deck like that competitive?

Is that 6 outcome decks in top8?

Prices for vintage cards are currently going down, and are likely to continue doing so in the near to mid future, so I would wait until the prices bottom out before buying into the format.
Another factor you might want to consider before taking the plunge is that the paper vintage scene is nowhere near as dynamic as Vintage on MTGO, you'll be lucky if you get to sleeve up paper vintage once a month, depending on where you live.
Are you willing to invest a significant amount of money into a hobby you'll only get to enjoy once or twice a month in small events and only once or twice a year in "high-profile" events?

As far as Dredge, there will always be a Bazaar of Baghdad deck in the format and even if something obsoletes dredge, it will be a better bazaar deck (like dragon was the BoB deck of choice before the dredge mechanic).
No amount of WOTC printing backbone breaking hate has been able to push Dredge completely out of the meta so far (see Ravenous Trap, Leyline, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest, Grafdigger's Cage... etc). Even when it is not the best-positioned deck and is being gunned for, it is still incredibly resilient and has inherent strengths against many archetypes.
It has existed for over 10 years and has been forcing vintage players to pack 6-8 graveyard hate in their sideboards to have a fighting chance ever since.
In fact, it just got a retooling with MH which even led to it getting its first card restricted due to unprecedented metagame shares, so it's about as good as it's ever been right now.
There is also already another competitive bazaar archetype in Survival, so even if dredge becomes horrendous or if you want to play something different you always have that option.

I guess this sort of fills the gap that the restriction of misstep opened. It gives a serious tool for tempo and control decks to push decks like PO and DPS into the mid-game where they can start piling up more hate pieces and/or get their draw engine + counter wall online.
Seems maindeck-able in Hatebears and Landstill, greatly increases consistency of turn 1 plays for Hatebears and helps Landstill by pushing the opponent into its long game gameplan and preventing more "veloce" blue decks from overpowering it with multiple broken spells.
This also seems like it could be really insane in a Bazaar deck (at least theoretically), since the tempo generated by this card is enough for a Bazaar deck to beat any deck that could potentially race it otherwise.

@garbageaggro
As far as Critical mass, I am referring to the Critical mass of available spell combo enablers: Memory Jar, Bolas's Citadel, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Oath of Druids, Gifts Ungiven, Paradoxical Outcome, Dark Petition, Burning Wish, Wheel of fortune, Timetwister, Tinker, Windfall, Yawgmoth's Will, Mind's Desire, ...

Draw7s are effectively almost as artifact mana reliant as Paradoxical outcome if you want to cast them in the first two turns and/or be able to consistently win the game after resolving one. If neither of those are part of your goals, then that begs to ask the question "why would you want to play those cards in the first place?".

But, doesn't the fact that you have to set it up make it worse than a card like timetwister?
I am not referring to the riddlesmith list, which I think completely offsets the drawback of the card and actually benefits from it. However, it remains to be seen whether that deck can outperform current combo decks.
I was thinking more along the lines of our established spell combo decks like DPS and PO, where this card is rarely going to be good and which would render those decks worse overall if you had to find room to add this card and a discard outlet.

At prima facie, this card does not belong in a Bazaar deck or a deck that would play Dack Fayden, which are the most obvious discard outlets in the format. So you would have to find another outlet which has synergies with a deck that would want access to the draw 7 effect. Riddlesmith seems like a good fit here, but I have not played with or against it.

I'm basically bringing up some of the arguments found in this article.
Given that it isn't good enough to build around in legacy, where the available combo enablers are much worse and where you have access to 4LED (which pairs divinely with this card), I have a hard time seeing this as relevant enough in vintage, objectively.

I will definitely acknowledge that this card has some very strong and unique qualities (First card of it's kind which makes it hard to assess, opens design space, increases threat density by having the potential to be a 2 for 1 against counterspells, the effect is very powerful, doubles as disruption against Bazaar decks)
But in the end, Echo of Eons seems too constraining for me to envision as viable (at least theoretically) and seems to suffer from the same issues that a card like Day's Undoing does (albeit less restrictively so).

I do hope I am wrong though because this card is definitely sweet and fun. I have full faith that if this card is breakable, Chubbyrain will find a way to build the deck that does so.

@blindtherapy But isn't that a lot of set up required when you already have a critical mass of cards that can produce the same effect which are more reliable.

Why would you want to play this card over the plethora of alternatives that are all more broken and more practical?
What does this card enable that you couldn't do before that is better than what the current combo decks are doing?
I have a hard time buying that you end up ahead vs a control deck by putting 6 mana into this card (which can be pyroblasted or flusterstormed) to get it countered and recasting it on the following turn. Or even that this is a frequent enough occurrence to be reliable.

Another thing this does is that even when not big, it still functions as a removal spell or a tempo play.
I could see this in the sideboard of a combo deck where it either provides an alternate win-con in the face of hate or it buys you enough time to stitch together a win.
It's hard to evaluate how reliable this card is though, which will ultimately be the deciding factor on whether this is actually playable.

@wagner said in [M20] Scheming Symmetry:

@macdeath A few decks in Modern use Thought Scour already, which is the perfect card to have with this.

That's exactly what I was thinking about for modern. Also seems good in a Goryo's vengeance/graveyard deck.