Perhaps one of the factors they considered when restricting COTV? Humans are being given all sorts of gifts this set.
Does anyone seriously disagree that the Pillars of 98 are really critical to what makes Vintage Vintage instead of Powered Legacy?
I do. Being powered alone to me is enough of a change from the legacy meta that it validates the formats existence. But to be realistic, there are more than just power cards in the format that change the contours of it from legacy.
Actual Power - Moxen, Lotus, timewalk, timetwister, recall
Restricted cards not in legacy that enable prominent strategies in vintage - Demonic tutor, Fastbond, Vampric tutor / Imp seal, Yawgs will, Wheel of fortune/Windfall, Academy, Sol ring, library of Alexandriam, even more.
Cards that are super powerful that are allowed without restriction in vintage - Shops, Bazaar, Survival of the Fittest, Misstep, etc
I contend that the presence of power alone is enough to define the format and are really the only pillars it could have to still be a unique format, but it goes far beyond that. The very presence of any one of some of these restricted cards is enough to enable some lists and disable others that would have otherwise been lists in vintage. it would not be different if you only had 1 shops instead of 4, the formats would still be unique and play out very differently.
I mean, case and point, I think that mono red burn is a tier one list in legacy because of its speed, yet in vintage where you can make it even faster because of lotus and mox ruby its not even a list because the power alone changes the scope of the entire format.
@Brass-Man If we only posted threads about cards that met that criteria this board would be vacant of posts save for people congratulating people for tourney wins and talking about when the 37th revision of the Gush book is coming out.
I think there is a line, but most threads are not devoid of content, its not like people are posting draft filler here, and most people can look at a card without play test and at least understand from heuristic metrics if it is worth discussion, not necessarily if it will or won't see play.
Especially with Traxos just having come out, being able to ramp up counters and toss them on a massive trampler seems insane
I find some unstated irony in the fact that you have issue with Ravager putting counters on Traxos but not the land that lets you play Traxos consistently ahead of schedule.
I disagree with ravager.
1 - I cannot tell you how many times I had heard the following from people on these boards: "Workshops may need to be restricted, but lets restrict Lodestone and see what happens".... "well, workshops is still too powerful, Workshops may need to be banned but lets add Thorn to the list" .... "well workshops is still too strong but lets add ravager to the list and see what happens."
At what point do we stop moving the goalposts for this one card? I've said it before and I think I'll say it again, I don't think there is any other non restricted card in the format that has caused as many restrictions as Workshops.
2 - Ravager has answers that workshops does not. Stifle is actually a powerfully demoralizing play against the modular trigger. The issue there becomes that stifle sees no play because of Mental misstep right now and is something the workshops deck can handle because of sphere effects which are powered out but, you guessed it, workshops.
At the end of the day I just don't see ravager being that big of a deal. The deck was strong before anyone used ravager and the decks it faced were very similar to what the field looks like now.
I'm ok with fastbond in the abstract, less so because your justification for it includes the prominence of Mental misstep. If MM gets to the point where it needs to go (as some very openly speculate it will) then I suspect Fastbond would have to go as well.
This feels really winmore to me. 4 mana do nothing on its own enchantments do not have any track record to speak of in the format, I actually can't think of any other card in the format right now that does nothing on its own, to the point where I think this is actively bad.
Then, assuming you land it and it's not blown out from a 1 mana counter, you need to resolve another spell, best case scenarios is you resolve Ancestral and draw 6, but you only net 4 cards on the first exchange and you have spent 5 mana, 4 at sorcery speed. A 5 mana voltron to make a slightly better Tidings does not ring out as a winning strategy.
I actually think this card is bad also because it takes up a slot that could have just been a draw spell. Draw spells tend to lead into other draw spells and resolving ancestral into treasure cruise or Ancestral into Snapcaster seems way more reasonable and mana efficient to me than this.
There is a very real possibility that LSG was banned for aesthetic purposes more so than any other factor. Vintage is now being covered in streams and videos and WOTC wants the format to feel more like the other formats when it comes to that. Because WOTC can make money off of streams for vintage, more so than selling cards they cannot reprint.
Regardless of if LSG was balanced or not, some games against a turn 1 lodestone last 5 turns of one player attacking and casting rocks and another player saying land go. Even if these are perfectly acceptable situations for a balanced vintage for the players that happens an acceptable percentage of the time, they give the perception of turn one wins with no interaction to a viewer.
WOTC does not want to stream games that look both boring and like a blow out, they want games that have both players playing over powered cards at each other on camera that make for good TV. They banned second sunrise in modern for this exact reason.
I will never fail to be amazed by people defending Mishras Workshop as some sort of untouchable format pillar and instead just trying to restrict everything around it.
I cannot name another card in vintage that remains unrestricted that has caused so many restrictions because of its legality. One could make the argument that Trinisphere, Thorn, Lodestone, and to some extent Chalice are all on the list either entirely or in part because of the power of workshops. Maybe even Mana crypt. Thorn and Lodestone are mostly innocuous enough in any non shops deck, if they see play at all. Now we are discussing getting rid of Ravager or Inspector, 2 cards that are utterly unimpressive on their own. Ravager has been in the format for how many years without any real presence, and how good would it be without fast mana to ramp it out along with it's pals. Like you say in your article it is a card with inherit risks associated with it. Inspector has the potential for crazy plays, but only if it hits the table early via consistent early game mana, and only one land in the list has the consistency to do that by itself. Even the example given in the article of a stifling turn one play of shops, inspector, sol ring, Sphere cannot happen without shops, any other configuration requires 1 additional card to generate enough mana or lotus, which is as we all know, restricted and cannot be used on subsequent turns to finish off your opponent like shops can.
How many cards on that list are there because of solely because of Bazaar? Or Oath? Standstill? I guess you could make the argument that Brainstorm and Ponder are there because of Force of Will maybe? Library because Island is legal?
That being said I don't disagree about the blue arms race, and perhaps Misstep does need to go, but I contend it may be because of factors other than balancing shops.
I would be curious to know how many of the games you played did not have you land a turn one shops or lotus, or a shops at all, and what the win rate on those matches were.
So eldrazi decks looking to splash basics for colored mana (or wastes for bloodmoon) and anything using crucible just found a new best friend. This seems to me like it could be a real player, as the cycling is uncounterable outside of stifle and it feeds delve mechanics. I will certainly be picking up 4 copies of this card, I think people really should be on the look out.
I don't think the point of this thread was ever to really dissect what is good or bad in the Standard meta but rather to speak about how mistakes in that format have long reaching effects on non rotating formats and the overall health of the game.
Most of this thread boils down to this: Any mistake in standard, be it actual or perceived, will have a negative result on vintage.
For the most part I think that is correct.
d needed the other land drop for Bazaar activations or to make another “lock piece” drop, Detention Vortex could be very serviceable. They would have to think pretty hard about setting themselves back 3 mana. It only works though if vortex would be followed up by another lock piece, like an accumulation of Spiketail Hatchling effects, or some major threat.
I think needing White mana is a thing that has to factor into the conversation as well. If this thing was any other color I think we would be having a much different conversation.
That being said this probably fits in best with hatebears as we all presume. Null rod + Strip + Wastelands, etc etc stops a lot, and the 1 mana is very relevant in a list where you conceivably want to spend your second land every single turn to strip theirs. Also of note is that Lurrus can recur this. I am entirely unsure if hatebears can function without 3 mana drops or not but I imagine so.
Mana taxing is nothing new for White, the difference now is the new templating is more proactive. Instead of just blanket saying everyone pay more for X (Thalia), meaning the tax does not take place until your opponent chooses, now you tend to get the benefit upfront until your opponent pays to shut it off.
It is usually a minor distinction and both play well with each other, but I think it shows they are willing to allow white to actually do more. Countermagic should always have been prominent in whites color pie slice, so I think we will see it more going forward as Force Spike effects.
Power Word Kill is a flavor win but I think that is about it. The most relevant thing I can think of here is it cannot kill Griselbrand or Scourge of the Skyclaves, one of which sees plenty of play in vintage and the other has potential. I think the issue with it overall is not many people are looking for a doomblade anymore.
These all play nicely into whites newly reinvigorated Mana tax strategy. Elite Spellbinder is probably the most prominent but the reprinting of Mana Tithe as well as this are all pretty big signals. It makes sense to me too because they don't play well with whites most powerful removal spell in most other formats, Path to Exile, and I think they want to make sure the strategy is parallel to the most powerful things already does, plus it plays into whites anti-ramp cards if you try to rush out payment on these taxes.
I'm not going to be shocked if we see a white Mana Leak in MH2, or even dare I say it a white Duress/Thoughtseize with the mana tax exile instead of discard.
That being said, I think most of the time in vintage this is going to feel lacking because of the sorcery speed. It does seem much better than the upcoming portable hole apart from card type matters stuff, but I feel like most decks that would want this may prefer slightly narrower answers that play on the stack.
I think the actual card has a floor of being a land that makes 1 mana and a ceiling of making 2 constructs and then fetching up a sol ring/crypt/lotus
I think the fact that it gets mana in under sphere effects and uncounterably is a reasonably big deal. Against dredge getting that extra crypt/relic is probably a big enough deal since it also lets you take pressure off your sideboard slots.
Interestingly this land is not legendary.
Also, while this seems damn powerful, I would not be shocked if there were other ones in this set that were better in respective strategies that supplanted this in everything but shops. This just seems like a very real way to make a broken land.
Yeah I think this card is the reason Chain of Smog spiked from nothing to $15 or so. Chain of Smog generates infinite mana with this card I believe.
There are honestly a handful of magecraft cards that Chain is a 2 card combo with. I'm not sure it is any particular one. It actually plays very well with Clever Lumimancer in Legacy where you can either go all in for a turn 2 alpha strike or actually play it fair for value knowing if your opponent bounces it back at you they reopen the possibility of you murdering them.
Hows this guy fair with Birgi in the format? I feel like they are different enough that they would have niches but with overlap, but this dude not being a legend means you can generate profit if you get both in play.
But, to wrap it up and reiterate, Vintage can thrive with unsanctioned quality-proxy tourneys
Define thrive. What numbers do you need to achieve and for how long do you need to hold them for a format to be successful? There are other old and discontinued collectable games out there that still maintain an entrenched player base, many of which have started developing their own rules structures for the games in order to maintain them.
I sold a whole big box of lord of the rings combat hex minis a few years ago for a good price tag long after the game was discontinued because there is a group of 20 or so players who still like to get together at conventions now and then and recreate massive battles, fights that are like 50 times the scale that the game was designed for. It's really cool but that community is not thriving. They also make up their own rules and proxy figures.
Warlord is a dead as a doornail CCG. My cards are all long gone to ebay or to a landfill. They announced earlier this year that they were publishing a 20 year anniversary release with 19 new cards. I have no idea who's buying this but I'd be lying if I didn't admit that maybe I wanted a set to store away for a few years.
I think the key commonality with all of these though is that they are otherwise dead and unsupported CCGs now. None of these got that fan treatment when the publishing company was still around and kicking because human nature is such that people tend to want to play the official format. Back to my original point, what makes us believe that players would want to play a heavily proxied and ignored by the publisher format like vintage when so many other options exist. I will also say that while I love the skill testing nature of vintage, as of late some cEDH games I have seen are on a level of skill and complexity far beyond what i see in a typical game of vintage. I do not love multiplayer formats myself which is the only thing that holds me back, but it does say to me that Vintage is not alone in the world when it comes to what it offers players.
If we're playing with proxies the real question at that point becomes, since it is no longer a sanctioned event, would you rather just play a different format that is sanctioned or make up your own. Honestly I like Vintage but I truly believe there are probably better formats to play at that point including
I don't see paper vintage happening again unless there a lot of proxies. Even Bazaars are worth a few K these days.
I find it hard to believe that events are going to have prize pools worth of value for people to put 50ks worth of cards on the table. Maybe if WOTC supported the format and held large and protected events (with security for players cards) then it would happen on a small scale.
I see this affecting all eternal formats. Legacy is still within reason for vested players and still has some budget decks for people to table, but if the duals, cradle, Diamond, and LED continue moving up then that format is going to die off worse than it has been. Honestly I think EDH may also have this problem long term because people want to play powerful cards there and not always be budget.