I like the hate bears, personally. I like non-haymaker decks having a chance. 2/2s don't "stop you from casting spells" like trinisphere did. You can cast them...just remove the creature. Yes, that means you can't run a linear 59 cards with a single hurkyls. You ACTUALLY have to run bolts, plows, etc. GASP! The ones complaining about the hate bears are the ones who love linear strategies and don't want competition...just to win fast and brutally. They are probably the same people that kill cats and smack babies because it shows their might against a clearly inferior opponent.
Best posts made by Thewhitedragon69
RE: Thoughts on restrictions
RE: Contempt for the meta-game
I love Vintage - and I have massive contempt for the format. My contempt doesn't come from the brokenness of decks. I wasn't even feeling contempt when turn 1 Workshop-> Trinisphere (a.k.a. have FoW or you lose) was common. Granted, I was the one casting trini off workshops, but I digress .
I feel contempt for 2 reasons. One - I hate blue. I find the overwhelming number of cheap/free counterspells to be discouraging to play against. It's like playing against a shops lock, but it doesn't matter if you are on the play or draw because they have their lock for free on turn 0. I am also bitter that blue has had the most broken spells since the beginning and it continued through Urza's block. Not until afterward did they start balancing the color wheel. Just consider the 1 mana for +3 cycle. Ritual, bolt, healing salve, giant growth, ANCESTRAL FUCKIN RECALL. Counterspells are also the ONLY answer to every spell, permanent or stack. Every color has permanent removal, but only blue can reactively stop spells. Blue also has bounce to remove ANY permanent without restriction. It's just an absurdly unbalanced color.
My second reason for contempt is more for the player base. The people are cool as far as being people. They are shitty for clutching on to the blue vs shops vs dredge triangle that's been vintage since ravnica. Humans is a nice innovation and I love the new survival list. I actually run Dark Depths myself because it is universally deemed fragile and slow - and I love to prove that wrong. I like when people innovate and I like a wealth of different, viable decks (thus why I love Modern now). I can't stand when people take a deck off the internet, swap 4 cards, then add their name to it like they invented the list. Further, most people won't even try to come up with anything new because they figure someone else already made the best deck, so they'll just netdeck it and win without needing to be innovative at all. Most people copy an exact 75, and it is sickening to me. I hate it even more when people take a netdeck, change 2 cards and rename it as if it's their own invention. That's like me taking a stock 60 merfolk deck, swapping 2 silvergils for 2 merfolk tricksters and calling it Miller Merfolk...or taking Huckleberry Finn, rewriting page 67 and saying I wrote the great-American novel with my name on the cover. Magic plagerism, I consider it. Awful (if my contempt didn't come across enough).
I think counterspells are interactive in that both players act/react, but interactivity is NOT what most anti-blue players gripe about. What they really mean when they say "Counterspells are uninteractive" is "When my opponent plays counterspells, I don't feel like I'm even in the game." There are many games vs control that go like so:
Player A - plays land, mox, 1cmc spell
Player B - missteps
Player B - plays land, ponder
Player A - plays land, spell
Player B - FoWs
Player B - plays land, mox, ancestral self
Player A - plays land, plays bigger spell
Player B - mana drain
Player B - plays land, Jace TMS, brainstorms
Player A - plays land, casts spell (not a threat with Jace), resolves, casts real threat
Player B - Gush, FoW
Player B - mox, tinker for BSC, brainstorms with Jace, time walk.
In that game, Player A hangs around a few turns and there's plenty of interaction. In reality, Player B was solitairing and Player A was basically draw/land/pass for all intents and purposes. Player A may well have never sat down at the table and would have been as much "in the game."
RE: Vintaholics Anonymous
I feel like the format has changed a lot with new printings and restrictions, but I think it is not necessarily bottlenecking in a critical mass as much as it is turning directions like a winding road.
Back in its heyday, it was gushatog, oath, and trinishops with an occassional fish deck (literally blue fish). That was 2002ish. Then planeswalkers came out and that card type got pushed to the limits with narset, oko, karn (consider that the OG "this is too busted" PW, Jace TMS, is now virtually unplayable!) But now we're seeing a new direction to the game - creature's matter/self mill. With Thassa and Jace o' mysteries and underworld breach to go along with arcanist, delve spells, etc., milling yourself has become a win condition.
Cards like DRS started the creature push, but now vengevine, hollow one, stonecoil, collector ouphe, and others have made the game slow down from the "chain my gushes" days of magic and made the attack phase as relevant as it was in old school times.
The only storm cards we really got any time recently was PO, and since then ouphe, karn, narset and such have just punished the "draw deck/drop jewelry" strategies. The game looks fundamentally different, but not in that there's only 1 viable deck from saturation. As a guy who always hated the shops/blue-draw/bazaar triangle of the vintage format, I'm very happy that we've finally broken that trifecta. Those are still powerful axis cards, but decks not even running or needing those engines are doing great things. BUG is a deck, oko oath is a deck, thassa+consult is a deck, hollow vine is a deck, fastbond is a deck, and to a lesser extent fringe decks (like my own welder deck) have become playable and respectable in the meta - hell, even freaking NINJAS...I repeat, NINJAS, have the ability to win. And of course dredge, PO/storm, shops, and xerox are still decks. That's more diversity in viable strategies than I've ever seen in vintage, honestly. Any of those decks can play well and win, whereas before only the three axis REALLY could win and fringe decks had barely a puncher's chance. I think Vintage is as good as ever, if not better.
Put it this way - I ONLY played vintage from 1994-2008 and then modern came out. Vintage got stale to me and Modern became my go to format. But in the past year or so, Vintage is now my fave format again. That says a lot about the meta to me.
RE: What are some Common Vintage Tips & Tricks Everyone Should Know?
@kistrand To piggy back on this, plan for the worst case scenario, but don't always act like the worst case scenario is the case. For example, if your opponent is on blue, has drawn some and has 5 cards in hand - he MAY have FoW, so you have to carefully consider casting that clutch spell. But if you DON'T cast that spell, and have nothing you could topdeck to push the spell through next turn, then not only did you virtually give them FoW in their hand, but you also gave them time to dig more and actually find FoW.
Sometimes they have the stop, sometimes they don't. Sometimes you cast your spell and they counter and it seems crippling (but if you held it in your hand, they'd STILL have the stop, so does it matter?). If you never cast the spell out of fear of a counter, then they ALWAYS have the stop, whether a counter is in their hand or not.
RE: [WAR] Return to Nature
This might actually have the most utility vs survival. Obviously you hit survival with the enchantment mode. But you can hit Hollow One with the artifact mode and an untriggered Vengevine with the grave mode. Pretty solid I say, and potentially maindeckable.
RE: Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?
I think yes. While it may irk some current players, they won't quit the game over it. We are hooked. Magic is heroin. Won't quit over something like that.
I think price IS a deterrent to many many people. It's a deterrent to me and I'm a 38 year old dude with some coin to waste. So many players I know won't invest money in the game and have bad assumptions about vintage. Without trying it, they won't play it. Without proxies, they won't try it.
So let's say you let the guy play kitchen table with proxies. He likes it. He's all in on the format. He's getting good and wants to play a tourney. The tourney virtually reads "$20K entry fee". He goes back to Modern FNM because Vintage at any competitive level is now unattainable.
Vintage should allow proxies. The prices are just stupid. If you want prices to stay high for collector value, fine. If you want it just to keep players out of the game, that's different. The ability to competitively play this format should not be determined on if you have a fat wallet or were lucky enough to start playing the game in 1993.
RE: SMIP Podcast #63: "Where Do We Go From Here?"
@wappla As primarily a Modern player now (I rarely play Vintage due to location, but the narrow options of viable decks is also a turnoff), I think you have a wrong view of diversity. In modern, there are 20ish linear decks, zoo/burn/GW CoCo/eldrazi/jund/death's shadow/etc. (all of which are viable depending on the meta), but there are also various combo decks, mill, lantern control, Esper control, Bant, Grixis, etc. There is real diversity (not an illusion).
Many cards are on a similar power level, but some are more powerful in certain builds and less so than others. Kalitas, for example, is a powerful creature in Jund. He is much less good in something like BW tokens. Vintage however...ancestral is just best in everything that taps islands, so there's no real thinking about what fits where when it comes to several staple cards.
Modern doesn't have the problem of people not knowing what is optimal...it's just that different lists can have different cards be optimal, and a card that is optimal in one strategy is just okay in another. Also there are a ton of solid decks that are viable choices to win any tourney. The entire color pie is equally competitive. It's not just blue splashing whatever support color. You can run into a billion different decks in a big tourney and your SB needs to really account for a lot of things (and your deck be fast enough or resilient enough to beat lots of other strategies). On the other hand, vintage basically has a big handful of cards that go in every deck and a chunk that is different depending on kill condition. Every blue deck runs ancestral, walk, FoW, (and lately gush), etc. Every shop deck runs thorn/chalice/golem, trini, etc. Vintage tourneys are basically a field of X workshops, gush decks, and bazaar...an occasional storm or oath deck in the mix.
You think in-game choices are all that matter, but many of us like deck building as much as the in-game. Modern also has a slew of in game choices outside of some super-linear aggro decks, but I disagree that in-game is all that matters. Winning with your own deck creation is also very gratifying as opposed to just grabbing whatever list so-and-so played and tweaking 2 cards. To me, that's letting someone else do the heavy lifting and claiming victory on the back of their work.
Side note, if you think your card choices/in-game decisions don't matter in Modern because you face one of 4 decks and lose no matter what, you have not been playing enough modern...at least not well. Play decisions matter a LOT in anything that's not all burn/creatures, of which there are a ton of choices. That's also where deck building choices come in - you need to build versatile decks that handle a lot.
I personally like being able to choose between one of 50 decks or building my own and being able to win a tourney. Having to pick between 7-8 deck choices to have any viable chance of winning is far more limiting to me. It seems you'd like a format of just 1 deck where the only decider of win/loss is how you play the deck. That's basically poker. And while I love poker, I also like games where I have choices and freedom to design outside of the game play. I don't like rock-paper-scissors. A format where a multitude of strategies and card choices are viable and equally powerful to the rest is a good thing IMO.
RE: How to beat Shops
I've found the 1-1 battle to be a losing proposition. Hurkyll''s is good for a sweep if you can really capitalize on the clean board (like a P.O. turn). But even after hurkyll's, you are still countering 1 card at the cost of 2 most times (FoW), and they just have more threats/prison than you have counters. The same goes for swords or disenchant, they have more threatening spells than you can 1-1 remove, but it's even worse now because of ballista/ravager - they will get a +1/+1 or ping for a bunch of damage in exchange for your removal spell.
I have found only a couple tactics to be useful:
Permanent sweepers: Seeds of innocence, by force, shatterstorm, serenity. These are all clean sweeps that negate ravager's dodge ability. They can ravager onto ballista for damage or load up a hangarback, but if they don't have ravager AND one of those outlets, they get swept with no benefit of ravager. Serenity is the fastest mana-wise, but in reality the slowest as you often want the effect the turn you draw it, not the turn after. Serenity also has the drawback of killing your enchantments...which is the next point of attack.
Tax effects: Energy Flux, Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison. E-flux is standard goodness, but they can sometimes pay the mana and swing. Tabernacle is even easier to pay for and swing and they don't need to pay to keep lock pieces on board. Ghostly prison has been my own tech lately as they have to choose between hitting me with their 2/2 balista, 2/1 revoker, 2/2 factory, etc. and can often never swing with more than 1. It doesn't stop them outright and it won't stop ravager/ballista shenanigans, but it does buy time. If you want more time, then you need option 3...
Prison the prison: Stony Silence, Null Rod, Moat. This has been my favorite line as of late. Stony silence and null rod are wrecking balls to the greater field at large, but shops has become VERY reliant on activated artifact abilities lately. Besides hitting their ramp mana, you shut off ravager, overseer, ballista, hangarback, triskelion. You are now left facing a horde of 2/2, 3/3, 2/1, 3/2 ground pounders with the one-of 5/3 (sans metamorph making even more copies). If you can land a moat afterward, it's GG as they have no way to swing or shoot you. Granted, that's a tall order with you shutting off your own ramp and it costing 4 or more through spheres, but if you land moat first - say off of a sol ring or lotus - and THEN stony silence, they just crap bricks. If you can turn 1 stony before they get to play, I'd still do that. You'll slow their explosiveness considerably (especially if they didn't keep a workshop hand) and will get enough time to hit 4 mana.
There is another option, but it's really more effective vs the smokestack variants of MUD...
Resource protection: Sacred Ground, Crucible of the worlds, Karmic Justice, Terra Eternal. By far, Sacred ground is my favorite here. You don't have to replay dead lands for your land drop like you do with crucible (especially if they get crucible too). You never lose land at all with sacred ground. It nerfs crucible and straight out shuts down smokestack. KJ is sweet as you get to pick off one of their permanents every time they shoot off your creature with ballista, wasteland a land, etc., but you still do lose your resource in exchange for theirs. It's the least effective and the most expensive, but it is something. Terra Eternal is better than sacred ground vs wastelands, but only marginally unless they have grave hate. It is more expensive and does squat vs smokestack. SG reigns supreme here for just 2 mana.
In ALL of these cases you'll still want 1-for-1 removal to take out the truly crippling spells that stop you from playing these other cards (crucible if they have waste, trinisphere, lodestone, revoker naming your jewelry). I find fragmentize to be the best value as it is the cheapest under spheres, hits everything in shop's deck, and doubles to kill oath so you are maximizing sb slot efficiency. Disenchant is a close runner up due to instant speed, but it costs 1 more, which means it may actually never get cast.
Notice almost all of my favorite options (bold-faced) are white. To me, it's the superior color vs anything for answer cards. It's not great as a kill outside of mentor, but it's the best answer color.
RE: Vintaholics Anonymous
@desolutionist It seems to me that your beef with Vintage is more a change in your perspective in life overall. If you're looking forward to spending more of your free time on family and business and only occasionally playing magic, then the game as a whole is likely becoming a lower priority to things that matter more in the grand scheme.
Latest posts made by Thewhitedragon69
RE: Lurrus Painter
@nofuture I guess in my deck the value of pyroblast is a bit greater since it's a way to remove enchantments (like turn 2 oath) or nuke basics so I get max value out of Magus.
I see 1 bolt, 1 fire in your list as the only removal for Ouphe. If your other outs are in the SB, you are likely looking at tutor chain into a possible answer (which means you're not tutoring into a combo). I agree that pyro vs an ancestral or time walk or FoW or something may not be the best (though it is strong), stopping something like turn 1/2 tinker when you just have 1 land IS huge.
On your list specifically, my only recommendation is swapping a bolt and grudge for 2 abrade. You are never whittling the opponent to 3 life with your build, so the burn to the face is irrelevant. When you face an ouphe and draw a grudge, you'll be glad it's abrade instead. The flexibility is big. You lose the ability to bolt a PW, but there are no PWs you really need to try to bolt anyway, as far as I can tell. Oko is immediately a 5 loyalty, and you don't really care about anything else as far as PWs. Maybe Karn, but he's 6 loyalty immediately as well.
You note doomsday and PO are bad matches. Pyro goes a long way in those matches too. Stopping a hand refill (PO), tinker->citadel, or Doomsday when they cast thassa's oracle when they've blown their counters stopping your combo, are really great uses for pyro.
RE: Lurrus Painter
@nofuture It's true if all things are equal, threat to answer. But they're not. Something like Oko isn't just a "threat" like a vanilla 1-for-1. He can take over the game and kill ALL your threats. Collector ouphe is another example. He's 1 card, but shuts down 15 of yours (and your goblins become 1/1s and 1/2s if you have no useful artifact to weld because of him). Some things just answer your entire deck and a single spell is a good trade to remove that. In this deck, pyroblast isn't just anti-blue...it's anti-everything because of painter. Killing a turn 1/2 oath of druids or a bazaar can make the difference in a game.
RE: Lurrus Painter
I have a somewhat similar list I've been playing/tuning for years. It does fairly well vs everything, but is never dominantly crushing everything (still searching for that deck!). It's usually good for a 50% WR, but that's pretty poor I guess. It's toughest matchup is jeskai xerox with lots of bolts/plow main. Urza's Saga won't work in my list for obvious reasons, and I suspect it will eat a wasteland more often than not anyway. Could be a nice SB inclusion vs non-wasteland decks.
// Vintage_Metalworks Eric Miller
// 61 Maindeck
// 15 Artifact
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Bolas's Citadel
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
// 19 Creature
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Goblin Welder
3 Painter's Servant
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
// 7 Instant
1 Ancestral Recall
// 16 Land
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
// 3 Planeswalker
1 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Dack Fayden
// 1 Sorcery
// 15 Sideboard
// 10 Artifact
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
// 3 Instant
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
// 2 Sorcery
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 By Force
This list is very "toolbox," which is what I like. Everything is synergistic. The pyroblasts aren't just for countermagic - they stop Oko or remove ANY permanent with painter's-naming-blue, obviously. Clutch removal. They are also great with Magus of the Moon (the deck's true MVP) since you can painter/blast their basic lands/on-color moxen. Astrolabe (1 or 2) might not be bad to add to access blue after casting Magus, but I think the snow land would be unreliable in my manabase. It's card draw anyway, so maybe worth a look. Karn is great anti-moxen to add to the mana lock too. He's just too good not to play.
Welder/Engineer are the king combo. Turn 1 welder off cavern, turn 2 engineer + any mox, crypt, etc. to weld in bolas's citadel is usually GG. Vs dredge/vine, the same sequence grabbing Sphinx is usually GG. Just wait until their upkeep to weld so they can't FoV your mox in response.
Blue gives you tinker & ancestral (obviously busted spells), but you also get Emry, which combos with the rest of the deck super nicely, and Dack, which combos with welder, digs for stuff, plays well with pyroblast if you ultimate, steals a tinkered bomb, grabs welder fodder from the opponent (moxen), and takes over a shops match or grabs a fast Hollow One. These cards all play great in the deck. Original iteration was RB for demonic, vamp, and daretti iconoclast, but tinker was a far more powerful tutor and Emry/Dack had better utility overall.
Abrade was just solid vs null rod/ouphe and also hit dreadhorde, vengevine, hollow one, mentor, citadel, any shops threat...so it got the nod vs any other removal I could think of. I tried a Daretti, Scrap Savant, and he's good as a "hasty welder," but 4 mana is rough in matches where you need to be quick and Dack#2 took his spot. I can see an argument for a 1/1 split.
I found Cavern of Souls a MUST 4x. You have to beat counterspells on your creatures. They won't always have the bolt or plow, but will surely have FoW EVERY DAMN TIME. It just gives you one extra way to turn off a clutch angle vs control. Name goblins for the gobos, clearly, but naming Wizard is amazing too to force through a Magus that may just take over the game on the spot or an Emry which you can then cast without needing a volcanic. In a pinch, you can force through Painter, naming scarecrow. Sometimes that's solid if you have 3 extra mana open and a grindstone in play. Then they need spot removal or it's GG (and they probably spent removal on all your other creatures).
Different approach from yours, but since your list was "similar," I figured I'd share mine.
RE: [STX] Detention Vortex
@LieNielsen I'm certain you are an OS/MS player busting out the land tax/scroll rack/armageddon combo, lol. For Vintage...maybe. While that list doesn't seem particularly bad as a white hatebears deck, the vortex seem like the weakest card of the list.
I don't typically see bazaar in a whitebears list, and I think the combo angle of it is a bit slow for what most vintage decks do. I don't think the card is completely useless, but I do think its applications in the majority of the vintage meta is limited at best. Requiring multiple lock pieces to make this playable seems suspect.
Splashing green for something like collector ouphe/FoV just seems better to me. If it has to be monowhite, I'm thinking containment priests or null rods serve that slot better. THAT list looks like it wants to be playing turn 1 land tax/scroll rack (which is iffy in Vintage anyway), so a second land drop could be your singleton bazaar (with only land tax as combo?) or any 2nd mana to cast a real threat or heavy lock piece like null rod. You might snipe a mox and then go on a land-kill plan, but it seems unlikely to be a consistent field-wrecker to me.
I don't mind that detention vortex can fragmentize or plow and MORE...it's the many times where this will do either effect poorly or LESS than other options.
I may be wrong and this might be a 1-mana banishing light...I just don't see it in any reliable form without a total build-around. And I think there are far more busted cards to build around if you're jumping through hoops.
RE: [STX] Detention Vortex
@lienielsen Yes, but what must you shut down for 1 mana? And temporarily at that? I can't think of any turn 1 threat that is a permanent that you have to shut down (that doesn't win the game on the spot). 2 mana seems highly attainable turn 1 in Vintage. The best "need" I can see is you are on the draw and your opponent goes "land, mox, mox, tinker ->BSC". You can now pacify it with just a land drop and hope they don't have a second land to just pop your vortex. Or you could have just cast StP. If they got citadel instead, this won't even stop the engine ability.
If they have a mox, they at least get one use out of it (revoker proactively can stop it)...and a 1-for-1 trade to temporarily stop a mox seems hardly worth it. Revoker is at least 2 damage a turn until they remove it.
So, yes, this is a 1-drop, vs all the superior options being a 2-drop. The thing is, do you ever really need a 1-drop pseudo-answer that provides no clock of its own, with a built-in self-destruct button? I can't really see the function of it vs anything relevant Vintage brings that a plow or 2-drop wouldn't just be far better at handling.
RE: [STX] Detention Vortex
I think the upside to revoker is that it's a body to swing with too. It capitalizes on the tempo and isn't just a 3-mana stall. Null rod seems to handle the moxen/balista issues in one, semi-permanent, sweep, and only costs 1 more mana. There are no planeswalker abilities you need to really worry about when you are on 1 mana. A revoker or more permanent answer for 2 or 3 mana is likely better vs PWs. This has some versatility, but I don't know if a speed bump that isn't ALSO a threat (thalia, revoker, spellbinder, archon, etc) is really worth the slot in a fish/tempo deck.